11 May
2011
11 May
'11
2:20 p.m.
A piece of private land in the ECAC where a large community garden might be
a possibility is the 3.45-acre property at 2210 Millbank Street, owned by
Bhola and Radha Gupta. There is a ramshackle house on this lot that was
badly damaged by the tornado; I'm guessing it will be torn down. Prior to
the storm, I had a conversation with Mr. Gupta about renting the property
for a nonprofit garden education project a friend and I were hoping to
start, and Mr. Gupta was enthusiastic. However, my friend and I ran into
difficulties getting necessarily permissions from the city, which scuttled
our effort. A community garden where the produce wasn't being sold would not
face the same problems we did, however. (Under Raleigh's current rules,
you're allowed to garden in a residential zone, but you're not allowed to
sell the produce you grow.)
Another thing that makes this property attractive for gardening is the fact
that it has its own working well, though I would note that the well house
was damaged in the storm. It is also a wide open piece of land with great
sun exposure. But it does drain to a stream, so using organic methods would
be essential.
It will be interesting to see what happens with this property now. There had
been a proposal a few years back to have Habitat build some 27 townhouses
there, but that deal fell through after the city raised objections to such
intense development there. There were also issues relating to the tree
ordinance.
Here's a link to the property tax information for the parcel:
http://services.wakegov.com/realestate/Account.asp?id=0033487&stype=add…
-- Sue Sturgis
11 May
11 May
2:26 p.m.
Sue,
I want to make sure I'm following you correctly. I see that the city does
not permit the sale of produce from your garden if your garden is zoned
residential. Does that mean on-site sales or any sales at all? These might
not be questions that you can answer.
Do you suppose there would be a problem if the garden was structured like a
coop, where owners got a shae?
Just thinking out loud here,
Sarah Jessica
On Wed, May 11, 2011 at 2:20 PM, Sue Sturgis <suesturgis(a)gmail.com> wrote:
A piece of private land in the ECAC where a large
community garden might be
a possibility is the 3.45-acre property at 2210 Millbank Street, owned by
Bhola and Radha Gupta. There is a ramshackle house on this lot that was
badly damaged by the tornado; I'm guessing it will be torn down. Prior to
the storm, I had a conversation with Mr. Gupta about renting the property
for a nonprofit garden education project a friend and I were hoping to
start, and Mr. Gupta was enthusiastic. However, my friend and I ran into
difficulties getting necessarily permissions from the city, which scuttled
our effort. A community garden where the produce wasn't being sold would not
face the same problems we did, however. (Under Raleigh's current rules,
you're allowed to garden in a residential zone, but you're not allowed to
sell the produce you grow.)
Another thing that makes this property attractive for gardening is the fact
that it has its own working well, though I would note that the well house
was damaged in the storm. It is also a wide open piece of land with great
sun exposure. But it does drain to a stream, so using organic methods would
be essential.
It will be interesting to see what happens with this property now. There
had been a proposal a few years back to have Habitat build some 27
townhouses there, but that deal fell through after the city raised
objections to such intense development there. There were also issues
relating to the tree ordinance.
Here's a link to the property tax information for the parcel:
http://services.wakegov.com/realestate/Account.asp?id=0033487&stype=add…
-- Sue Sturgis
_______________________________________________
Gardening mailing list
Gardening(a)eastraleigh.org
http://www.eastraleigh.org/mailman/listinfo/gardening
2:41 p.m.
Any sales at all, unfortunately. Our plan had been to grow at the Millbank
property and sell some of the produce at a downtown farmer's market and the
rest via a CSA at deep discounts for low-income people. The problem arose
when we went to the city to check in on getting all the proper permits and
licenses. They said they would not grant any permits to such an operation in
a residential neighborhood in order to protect the community's residential
character. In the conversations I had with city staff, I noted that I had a
large garden at my own residential property and asked if I would be running
afoul of city rules if I were to take the produce I was already growing
there and sold it elsewhere; they told me that would indeed be a violation.
On Wed, May 11, 2011 at 2:26 PM, Sarah Jessica <sarah.farber(a)gmail.com>wrote;wrote:
Sue,
I want to make sure I'm following you correctly. I see that the city does
not permit the sale of produce from your garden if your garden is zoned
residential. Does that mean on-site sales or any sales at all? These might
not be questions that you can answer.
Do you suppose there would be a problem if the garden was structured like a
coop, where owners got a shae?
Just thinking out loud here,
Sarah Jessica
On Wed, May 11, 2011 at 2:20 PM, Sue Sturgis <suesturgis(a)gmail.com> wrote:
A piece of private land in the ECAC where a large
community garden might
be a possibility is the 3.45-acre property at 2210 Millbank Street, owned by
Bhola and Radha Gupta. There is a ramshackle house on this lot that was
badly damaged by the tornado; I'm guessing it will be torn down. Prior to
the storm, I had a conversation with Mr. Gupta about renting the property
for a nonprofit garden education project a friend and I were hoping to
start, and Mr. Gupta was enthusiastic. However, my friend and I ran into
difficulties getting necessarily permissions from the city, which scuttled
our effort. A community garden where the produce wasn't being sold would not
face the same problems we did, however. (Under Raleigh's current rules,
you're allowed to garden in a residential zone, but you're not allowed to
sell the produce you grow.)
Another thing that makes this property attractive for gardening is the
fact that it has its own working well, though I would note that the well
house was damaged in the storm. It is also a wide open piece of land with
great sun exposure. But it does drain to a stream, so using organic methods
would be essential.
It will be interesting to see what happens with this property now. There
had been a proposal a few years back to have Habitat build some 27
townhouses there, but that deal fell through after the city raised
objections to such intense development there. There were also issues
relating to the tree ordinance.
Here's a link to the property tax information for the parcel:
http://services.wakegov.com/realestate/Account.asp?id=0033487&stype=add…
-- Sue Sturgis
_______________________________________________
Gardening mailing list
Gardening(a)eastraleigh.org
http://www.eastraleigh.org/mailman/listinfo/gardening
_______________________________________________
Gardening mailing list
Gardening(a)eastraleigh.org
http://www.eastraleigh.org/mailman/listinfo/gardening
3:06 p.m.
The Community Garden report recommended a zoning change to permit food
grown for sales. From page 8:
"Zoning: Gardens, as an accessory use, are currently permitted in most
zoning districts in Raleigh except CM (Conservation Management), O&I-3
(Office & Institution-3), and I-1 and I-2 (Industrial-1 and Industrial-2)."
"The Work Group recommends the Raleigh Code of Ordinances be amended to
permit ‘community gardening’ as a principal permitted use (under
specified conditions), in certain zoning districts (see 10-2071 and
10-2072). Such amendments could be made part of the UDO. See Appendix
F—Schedule of Permitted Land Uses in Zoning Districts."
"Following are potential standards for allowing community gardens as a
principal permitted land use in medium- to high-density residential
districts (R10 through R30). Community gardens would be allowed as a
conditional use in R-1, R-2, R-4, and R-6 districts."
"A community garden shall be primarily used for growing and harvesting
food crops and ornamental crops, such as flowers, for consumption or
donation or for sale off-site, provided the location of the latter is
within a district zoned for retail uses."
"Seasonal on-site sales at community gardens may be permitted upon
approval of a Special Use Permit, following the procedures set forth in
Sec. 11.2.10. Sales shall be restricted to crops grown and harvested
on the site. No sales of animals or animal products shall be permitted."
That ordinance change has not yet been made. Perhaps we as a group
should advocate for it to City Council.
Mark
On 05/11/2011 02:41 PM, Sue Sturgis wrote:
Any sales at all, unfortunately. Our plan had been to
grow at the
Millbank property and sell some of the produce at a downtown farmer's
market and the rest via a CSA at deep discounts for low-income people.
3:16 p.m.
Mark, I would be all for that! BTW, during my conversations with city
staffers, some did urge me to contact city officials and press for changes
to the code. They agreed that it made no sense to prohibit off-site sales,
since they do not impact the community where the produce is being grown.
On Wed, May 11, 2011 at 3:06 PM, Mark Turner <jmarkturner(a)gmail.com> wrote:
The Community Garden report recommended a zoning
change to permit food
grown for sales. From page 8:
"Zoning: Gardens, as an accessory use, are currently permitted in most
zoning districts in Raleigh except CM (Conservation Management), O&I-3
(Office & Institution-3), and I-1 and I-2 (Industrial-1 and Industrial-2)."
"The Work Group recommends the Raleigh Code of Ordinances be amended to
permit ‘community gardening’ as a principal permitted use (under
specified conditions), in certain zoning districts (see 10-2071 and
10-2072). Such amendments could be made part of the UDO. See Appendix
F—Schedule of Permitted Land Uses in Zoning Districts."
"Following are potential standards for allowing community gardens as a
principal permitted land use in medium- to high-density residential
districts (R10 through R30). Community gardens would be allowed as a
conditional use in R-1, R-2, R-4, and R-6 districts."
"A community garden shall be primarily used for growing and harvesting
food crops and ornamental crops, such as flowers, for consumption or
donation or for sale off-site, provided the location of the latter is
within a district zoned for retail uses."
"Seasonal on-site sales at community gardens may be permitted upon
approval of a Special Use Permit, following the procedures set forth in
Sec. 11.2.10. Sales shall be restricted to crops grown and harvested
on the site. No sales of animals or animal products shall be permitted."
That ordinance change has not yet been made. Perhaps we as a group
should advocate for it to City Council.
Mark
On 05/11/2011 02:41 PM, Sue Sturgis wrote:
Any sales at all, unfortunately. Our plan had
been to grow at the
Millbank property and sell some of the produce at a downtown farmer's
market and the rest via a CSA at deep discounts for low-income people.
_______________________________________________
Gardening mailing list
Gardening(a)eastraleigh.org
http://www.eastraleigh.org/mailman/listinfo/gardening
3:18 p.m.
I am also willing to get involved in this community garden effort. It would be great to
have a big project and meet new people!
Tracey
1620 Bennett
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile
-----Original Message-----
From: Sue Sturgis <suesturgis(a)gmail.com>
Sender: gardening-bounces(a)eastraleigh.org
Date: Wed, 11 May 2011 15:16:27
To: Gardening<gardening(a)eastraleigh.org>
Reply-To: Gardening <gardening(a)eastraleigh.org>
Subject: Re: [Gardening] Community garden land possibility in ECAC
_______________________________________________
Gardening mailing list
Gardening(a)eastraleigh.org
http://www.eastraleigh.org/mailman/listinfo/gardening
4:22 p.m.
I'm with Sue on the off-site sales thing - that is a particularly ludicrous
bit of the rules as they stand. I've downloaded the Community Garden Report
Mark referenced (available
here<http://www.raleighnc.gov/content/PlanCurrent/Documents/Administrati…)
and will read up. I don't currently speak "zoning" but am willing to learn
it to advocate for our 'hoods.
Mark, do you have ideas as to how to be effective advocates? Is there a
specific date when Community Garden-related items are being discussed by the
council?
Sue, the ECAC tract garden sounds like it is in its infancy. Do you think
it would be smart to advocate for changes in the policy first or to firm
things up with Mr. Ghupta as a next step? Am I asking the wrong questions?
SJ
On Wed, May 11, 2011 at 3:18 PM, <traceyanne81(a)yahoo.com> wrote:
I am also willing to get involved in this community
garden effort. It would
be great to have a big project and meet new people!
Tracey
1620 Bennett
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile
-----Original Message-----
From: Sue Sturgis <suesturgis(a)gmail.com>
Sender: gardening-bounces(a)eastraleigh.org
Date: Wed, 11 May 2011 15:16:27
To: Gardening<gardening(a)eastraleigh.org>
Reply-To: Gardening <gardening(a)eastraleigh.org>
Subject: Re: [Gardening] Community garden land possibility in ECAC
_______________________________________________
Gardening mailing list
Gardening(a)eastraleigh.org
http://www.eastraleigh.org/mailman/listinfo/gardening
_______________________________________________
Gardening mailing list
Gardening(a)eastraleigh.org
http://www.eastraleigh.org/mailman/listinfo/gardening
4:27 p.m.
I don't know how much help I will be but I was a city planner and a certified zoning
offical in a former life (well, career at least). I would be happy to look at the document
you referenced. Can it be emailed?
Amy
Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry®
-----Original Message-----
From: Sarah Jessica <sarah.farber(a)gmail.com>
Sender: gardening-bounces(a)eastraleigh.org
Date: Wed, 11 May 2011 16:22:41
To: Gardening<gardening(a)eastraleigh.org>
Reply-To: Gardening <gardening(a)eastraleigh.org>
Subject: Re: [Gardening] Community garden land possibility in ECAC
_______________________________________________
Gardening mailing list
Gardening(a)eastraleigh.org
http://www.eastraleigh.org/mailman/listinfo/gardening
4:45 p.m.
My plans for doing anything at the Millbank location have been abandoned at
this point, as the friend I was working with is now focusing his efforts on
gardening elsewhere. Because he grows produce for part of his income, it
wasn't practical for him to be involved in a permitting struggle with the
city. Meanwhile, I am too busy with my job, home garden and tornado recovery
to sink a lot of energy into a big project like that right now. So the lot
and what to do with it is completely up for grabs.
But if others are interested in making something happen there, I would be
happy to do all I can to help. This might be a good time to talk with Mr.
Gupta, as he's probably making plans for next steps at the property. Changes
in the city rules wouldn't be necessary to garden there if there were no
plans to sell what was grown.
BTW, here's an aerial image of the lot in question so you can get a sense of
its location. It's just a couple of blocks from Raleigh North Apartments, a
private low-income housing complex, and from Powell Elementary School, which
could potentially become a high-poverty school if we move to a neighborhood
school assignment plan:
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q…
On Wed, May 11, 2011 at 4:22 PM, Sarah Jessica <sarah.farber(a)gmail.com>wrote;wrote:
I'm with Sue on the off-site sales thing - that is
a particularly ludicrous
bit of the rules as they stand. I've downloaded the Community Garden Report
Mark referenced (available
here<http://www.raleighnc.gov/content/PlanCurrent/Documents/Administrati…)
and will read up. I don't currently speak "zoning" but am willing to learn
it to advocate for our 'hoods.
Mark, do you have ideas as to how to be effective advocates? Is there a
specific date when Community Garden-related items are being discussed by the
council?
Sue, the ECAC tract garden sounds like it is in its infancy. Do you think
it would be smart to advocate for changes in the policy first or to firm
things up with Mr. Ghupta as a next step? Am I asking the wrong questions?
SJ
On Wed, May 11, 2011 at 3:18 PM, <traceyanne81(a)yahoo.com> wrote:
I am also willing to get involved in this
community garden effort. It
would be great to have a big project and meet new people!
Tracey
1620 Bennett
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile
-----Original Message-----
From: Sue Sturgis <suesturgis(a)gmail.com>
Sender: gardening-bounces(a)eastraleigh.org
Date: Wed, 11 May 2011 15:16:27
To: Gardening<gardening(a)eastraleigh.org>
Reply-To: Gardening <gardening(a)eastraleigh.org>
Subject: Re: [Gardening] Community garden land possibility in ECAC
_______________________________________________
Gardening mailing list
Gardening(a)eastraleigh.org
http://www.eastraleigh.org/mailman/listinfo/gardening
_______________________________________________
Gardening mailing list
Gardening(a)eastraleigh.org
http://www.eastraleigh.org/mailman/listinfo/gardening
_______________________________________________
Gardening mailing list
Gardening(a)eastraleigh.org
http://www.eastraleigh.org/mailman/listinfo/gardening
12 May
12 May
10:31 a.m.
All,
I'm happy to get involved in this effort as well. I have no experience in
zoning, but I have a background in landscape contracting, botany, nursery
management and CA conservation corps. I'm new to NC, so this will give me
the opportunity to get more involved in the community and meet local
gardeners.
Thanks!
Noelle
On Wed, May 11, 2011 at 3:18 PM, <traceyanne81(a)yahoo.com> wrote:
I am also willing to get involved in this community
garden effort. It would
be great to have a big project and meet new people!
Tracey
1620 Bennett
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile
-----Original Message-----
From: Sue Sturgis <suesturgis(a)gmail.com>
Sender: gardening-bounces(a)eastraleigh.org
Date: Wed, 11 May 2011 15:16:27
To: Gardening<gardening(a)eastraleigh.org>
Reply-To: Gardening <gardening(a)eastraleigh.org>
Subject: Re: [Gardening] Community garden land possibility in ECAC
_______________________________________________
Gardening mailing list
Gardening(a)eastraleigh.org
http://www.eastraleigh.org/mailman/listinfo/gardening
_______________________________________________
Gardening mailing list
Gardening(a)eastraleigh.org
http://www.eastraleigh.org/mailman/listinfo/gardening
10:44 a.m.
I spoke briefly with Diane Sauer, Raleigh's Parks Director, yesterday on
the topic of community gardens. The gist was that the new UDO will sort
all of the zoning issues out. The UDO is being completed soon and the
public review window closes next month!
Phil Poe of the Five Points CAC has put together a website on the UDO. I
suggest we get the conversation started over there:
http://www.raleighudo.com/
Mark
On 05/12/2011 10:31 AM, Noelle Lapcevic wrote:
All,
I'm happy to get involved in this effort as well. I have no experience
in zoning, but I have a background in landscape contracting, botany,
nursery management and CA conservation corps. I'm new to NC, so this
will give me the opportunity to get more involved in the community and
meet local gardeners.
Thanks!
Noelle
6:16 p.m.
When a community garden comes to fruition I have one, maybe two, sprinklers
to donate.
5326
days inactive
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11 comments
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participants (7)
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amsadler27＠gmail.com -
Jamie Bort -
Mark Turner -
Noelle Lapcevic -
Sarah Jessica -
Sue Sturgis -
traceyanne81＠yahoo.com